LOS ANGELES – The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors voted Tuesday to work on legislation that would allow social workers and law enforcement officers to detain severely mentally ill individuals who refuse treatment that could save their lives.
By law, those with mental illness who pose a danger to themselves or others or are “gravely disabled” may be held for involuntary evaluation and treatment in a psychiatric setting. The definition of gravely disabled focuses on an individual’s ability to care for his or her own physical needs, to find shelter and food to survive.
Supervisor Kathryn Barger urged her colleagues to consider expanding that definition to include an inability to seek care due to a mental disorder.
Barger talked about meeting a woman named Deborah who has lived on the streets for 20 years and mistakenly believes her parents live across the street.
“There are predators out on Skid Row and this is a woman who, if not getting access to care and housing and shelter, is going to die on our streets,” Barger said, later telling the board, “She’s not going to make it through the winter, she’s just not.”
Barger and mental health advocates said the resources are available to help Deborah and others in desperate need, but that health care workers’ hands are tied.
“There are individuals in such dire need that their lives are in jeopardy,” said Brittney Weissman, executive director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness, Los Angeles County Council. “The limits of the law insist (health care workers) turn away from providing life-saving help.”
Supervisor Sheila Kuehl voted no.
“I’m very grateful for the impulse behind this motion … but I could not disagree more,” Kuehl said.
Kuehl asked the head of the county’s Department of Mental Health what happens when someone is brought in on a “5150 hold,” a reference to the relevant state government code that allows involuntary treatment.
Dr. Jonathan Sherin explained that a mental health team would engage the person, who would be taken to a hospital emergency room and then evaluated over a 72-hour period. Depending on the severity of their mental illness, the individual would then be released with a plan for care or kept for a longer period of time.
“So the 72-hour hold is whether they agree or not. They could protest, but under the law, it’s a `for your own good’ kind of thing?’ Kuehl asked.
Sherin replied that longer holds would require court approval.
Kuehl has expressed concern that changing the law could violate civil liberties and that people could be targeted for not meeting transitory definitions of what is normal.” At an earlier board meeting, she recalled a time when gay and lesbian individuals were judged to be mentally ill.
Dr. Emily Defraites, a psychiatrist who works at the Veterans Health Administration, told the board that efforts to expand the definition of “grave disability” were aimed at a small segment of those with mental illness.
“I’ve realized that I really need this motion to try to take good care of people,” Defraites said. “This will only apply to a very small minority of our sickest psychiatrically and medically ill people.”
Kuehl warned that a county-sponsored bill to change state law would be unlikely to pass, citing her past experience as chair of the state Senate’s Health and Human Services Committee.
“Personally, I think it will have a fairly rough time in Sacramento and I would prefer that the county not be a sponsor of the bill,” Kuehl said.
Barger originally brought this motion two weeks ago, as part of broader set of recommendations for helping mentally ill and homeless individuals. The board had postponed a vote in favor of further discussion.
Barger said Tuesday she would welcome working with Kuehl to make sure any recommended legislation dealt with her concerns, but that the time to act was now.
“The county is a safety net provider for a reason and has a moral obligation to ensure that those on our streets who are suffering from grave mental illness, who are living in deplorable conditions and unable to provide for themselves, (for their) basic human needs, receive life-saving treatment and care,” Barger said.
An estimated 30 percent of the county’s homeless population and roughly 27 percent of county jail inmates suffer from serious mental illness, according to the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority and the sheriff’s department.
The board directed Department of Mental Health staffers to work with county lawyers, mental health advocacy groups and civil rights organizations to develop a set of recommendations in 60 days.
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Valerie says
The law needs to be enforced as is, if gravely disabled criteria HAS to be due to a mental illness, how in the sam hell was my fiance, who has NO medical history of any mental illness, go to an URGENT CARE and see an emergency room certified doctor, NOT a psychiatrist for blood sugar issues and chest pains end up being stuck there for 8 hours feeling like he was being interrogated until he would say he was suicidal, he wasn’t, but they wouldn’t let up. He thought he was with loving family members, but in reality, things were said about his reason for being there not being what he really said, how is that even possible? His medical issues were ignored and he was sent to a psych er almost 3 hours from our home, that was a huge inconvenience because i was not able to go and talk to any of his doctors face to face, they kept him for a “72 hour eval” but how could they possibly do an eval when they mysteriously “found” a prescription that he supposedly stopped taking, so they drugged him up, he was not able to talk to me on the phone he was so foggy, but he could coherently talk to a doctor and tell the doctor he was “still suidical”? Oh, and as we all know, if you have someone willing to come forward and say that you are willing and able to take the person home with you and care for him, he doesnt have to go to a hospital, the PET team can do a house call to do the mental eval, the reason this was not the case for us was that the nurse at the urgent care told him i was there but he didnt recommend that he see me because i was demanding to see him, not true at all, but if it was, why would he leave me standing there and not force me to leave immediately? There was a cop behind me and one behind him….
Karen says
This is bull… Gabriel gets murdered social workers let him down but they want to do this. Give me a break. The beginning of the end. Fight to save the children starving and being murderred and arrest the doctors who started our opiod crisis…. do something that needs done for once!
Steven says
… heaven help us, we still haven’t recovered from last time the policy community let loose the mental health profession, to fly over polite society’s cuckoo nest. Freudian monsters run amok with their beloved electroshock therapy, lobotomizing everyone they saw, into living zombies, not one patient in the history of contemporary mental health have they ever “normalized” –
Alexis says
Don’t get on nurse Ratchet’s bad side or you get electroshock therapy; “One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest.”
Tim Scott says
Now they don’t want to wait for you to fly over, they want to allow deputies to throw you over the cuckoo’s nest.
aManOfTruth says
Having been homeless in the AV and Santa Clarita for 20 years I can say that I have met people who are VERY mentally ill and who are on the verge of not being able to care for themselves.. in a few years perhaps… A memory sticks in my head.. 4 years ago.. catching a bus in front of McDonalds at 47th and S.. a black girl sitting at the bus stop bench with blood running down her leg.. she was chunky and around 30.. wearing a dirty dress and clearly just had her period and the look on her face told everything… she just didn’t care… as the bus pulled away I looked out the window and felt so sorry for her… I felt helpless.. what can I do? Who can I call? Even if someone listens will she still be there? Should we lock her up? Throw her in a cell? I can’t imagine her hell.
Alexis says
Great comment! I was homeless for ten years. It’s complicated.
Ron says
If Rex and Marv has their way and got their sham homeless tax passed, she would have been jailed instead of getting mental health help. They don’t understand what homelessness is and have in fact called those trying to help the homeless ‘poverty pimps’.
Alexis says
Political rhetoric at these meetings with voices running hollow. For years I have witnessed this, and it is frustrating to say the least. Photo-ops and personal agendas that are truly appalling. This is the world we live in, where it’s about “get” instead of “give.” I am truly grateful to the selfless ones that don’t let politics get in the way of the path they have chosen to help those vulnerable and suffering.
Loam says
We should tie mental health treatment to the taxes to help the homeless. Kuehl wants more funding for homeless but less treatment but it’s unfair to the taxpayer to have it both ways. If it’s a choice of freedom to live on the streets, then I don’t see why taxpayers need to fund more shelters and food kitchens. She is worried about civil liberties of everyone but the taxpayer.
Alexis says
Social workers and law enforcement running around like Nazi’s, rounding up the homeless under the guise of “severely disabled” label. They can’t even save abused children, that they know about. Not to mention the predators in law enforcement that need to be removed, before making decisions about the homeless that need to be removed.
Tim Scott says
It’s comments like these that make me wonder why you and I can’t get along Alexis.
Alexis says
I’m willing, Tim.
CAP'N LANCASTER says
Ole Rex and Ole Marv was tryin to pass their Dumb Homeless Tax as Helpin the Homeless when it was Fixin to put Homeless in Prison. The Peoples sawed through it
Alexis says
I saw a lot while I was homeless CAP’N LANCASTER. For a professing Christian, ole Rex couldn’t care less about fellow man. He likes hanging out with the rich folks, while viewing the regular folks as inferior.
CAP'N LANCASTER says
That there is the Truth Alexis. That there is the truth
Alexis says
I never said I am a professed Christian, William. I said Rex Parris is a professing Christian, which means he is not a practicing Christian. I said James Ledford is a practicing Christian because he walks the walk. Nowhere in my comments did I mention myself, because I wasn’t talking about me. Are you that desperate, William, that you have to lie.
Tim Scott says
And I said that I don’t know if Ledford is a practicing Christian. I’ve never heard him claim any faith. The walk he walks may be the walk of a man of character and conscience.
Wrecks on the other hand I have heard claim to be a Christian, yet he walks the walk of a megalomaniac looter. So, professing, definitely.
Alexis says
Yes, Mayor James Ledford is a Christian (great example). He attends a local church and is a man of much faith. You don’t have to personally know him, to know the man’s beliefs; what he stands for in this community. He is a humble man, unlike Rex Parris. He is also a man of character and conscience that happens to be a Christian. Most people in Palmdale know this about him. Check on it yourself. He is also a peacemaker when it comes to others of different views, and that is how it should be.
Alexis says
Yes, James Ledford is a Christian. He attends a local church, and is a man of much faith. Most people know this about Mayor Ledford. I made a comment that was factual (find out for yourself).
Alexis says
Look under James Ledford Jr. biography, and you will see that he states he is a Christian. A man of character and conscience that happens to be a Christian.
Tim Scott says
Fair enough. As I said, I’ve never heard him say that (nor looked at his biography) but I’m certainly not surprised. Note that I also didn’t really doubt your statement in the first place…just pointed out that it is possible to be a man of character and conscience without being a practicing Christian.
William says
“professing Christian”???? Alexis
Why didn’t you write “Practicing Christian”?
There is a difference and your posts illustrate it.
Tim Scott says
There is a difference, and there is no doubt that Wrecks is a PROFESSING Christian, not a PRACTICING Christian. The god he follows appears to be money, or perhaps himself.
Alexis says
James Ledford is a practicing Christian.
Tim Scott says
I don’t know Jim Ledford well enough to say that, but I sure don’t see any evidence against it.
Barabbas says
If Rex is a Christian, he practices a brand of Christianity that most Christians are not familiar with and would have nothing to do with. Hating and suing your neighbor are not commands of the Lord. Bearing false witness against your neighbor are not commands of the Lord.
Whatever brand he is, count me out.
William says
Alexis says Mayor Ledford is a practicing Christian.
She says she’s a professed Christian.
Either she knows the difference or unwittingly revealed herself as a phony.
Not to worry though. There are millions just like that.
Would you Fly Alexis if she professed to be an airline pilot?
Alexis says
As someone who lived on the streets for ten years, I can say that I’m with Sheila Kuehl.
Juan says
Or perhaps just like you guys are doing now and not listening to what someone has said. Then make stuff up to have it seem like this law really needs to get pushed tbrough. Cuz had you people just read what the woman we are talking about in this story had to say. Now we know the true story and therefor no longer need to use her as an example for this law. They will say anything to get their way.
Tim Scott says
I thought the “you guys” was referring to the board of supervisors, specifically Barger. She didn’t listen to Deborah’s actual story, at least according to Deborah. Then she made up stuff around it to make it seem like this law needed to get pushed through.
Deborah says
They are talking about me and i never lived out on the streets for 20 years ive actually been out on the streets for 3 1/2 years people like to switch my words up for no reason
Tim Scott says
Does anyone else see the logic failure in “She’s been living on the streets for twenty years and if we don’t find a way to let the cops lock her up she just isn’t going to make it through the winter”? As in, if she made it through the last twenty winters how come she needs to be arrested ‘for her own good’ now?
Barger couldn’t care less what happens to someone living on the streets, she just represents the people who don’t want them living on THEIR streets. She wants the cops to be allowed to “clean up” the homeless problem. Probably longs for the “good old days” of debtors prisons also.
Sydney says
These people are not being arrested. They will, I hope, be treated and transitioned to places off of the streets. This is not a crime against humanity. Sure, Deborah has made it 20 years, but she will more than likely die on the streets, and that is tragic in this day and age. Maybe she is physically disabled and ill, we don’t know all the facts. But a woman on the streets has a far shorter lifespan than a man. I’m sure you would agree with that. If the system did nothing we would continue to complain. They finally work to help the most gravely psychiatrically ill, and we are going to start calling it “unlawful arrests”? Come on now.
Tim Scott says
Barger’s intention is “would allow social workers and law enforcement officers to detain.” You can hope that means “treated and transitioned” all that you want, but what it actually means is that someone with the extensive* mental health training of a deputy sheriff gets to say “hey, let’s haul you in for your own good” to pretty much anyone they want, and no one will be able to question the motives of that deputy.
Since I can think of a fair number of deputies that would LOVE to be able to haul me in on a whim I am strongly opposed. Plenty of deputies, and even more of their attendant badge lickers, promote the idea that “if you don’t like cops you must be a criminal.” Fortunately, calling someone a criminal runs face first into the fact that a criminal charge has to be proven in court. What do you think happens when you let these thugs and their sycophants run loose with “if you don’t like cops you must be crazy” and just drag people off the street “for their own good”?
*sarcasm, extra heavy, in case you missed it
Laughing says
Perhaps the last 20 have taken a toll and her health is now failing.